Welcome to Human Marketing, a weekly podcast for B2B marketers. Unpacking how brands can stay authentic, demonstrate authority, and build trust as AI floods or feeds with content. I'm Chris Nelson, founder of Human Video. We remotely produce podcasts and other video content with real humans and just the right amount of soul.

I'm delighted to be joined today by Juliana Kelly. Juliana is VP of Growth Marketing at a series B SaaS called Cloudsmith for joining Cloud Smith. A few months ago, Juliana was Global Director for Digital Demand and campaigns at Recorded Future and spent seven years at HubSpot and multiple roles finally ending up as global campaigns manager. Welcome Juliana.

It's great to be here. Chris. Thank you for having me.

It's all good. All good. I should say full disclosure at the start, cloud Smith is a company I know really well because they've been my client for about two years and I've kind of been on a journey with them. When I first started about two years ago with them, there was 30 people in the company and now there's, at our last off site a couple of weeks ago, there's nearly a hundred.
So they've been on a real journey, and I am close to that. I join your marketing meetings, Juliana, every week, which is wonderful as a contractor. And so I hope we're going to have a really cool chat about, I guess the task ahead of you in your few months into your time at Cloud Smith and I guess that particular job you have of marketing and for what is a really technical product in a technical world, in a very SaaS world. And I'm really looking forward to the chat. Just to get started, can you tell me a little bit about, I mentioned your potted history there. Tell me a little bit about what you did in your previous roles, maybe particularly interested in what you got up to at HubSpot.

Yeah, absolutely. So before I was a HubSpot employee. I was a HubSpot customer, and I'll tell you one great career choice you can make is to find a product you love using and then work there. So not as fortunate as I was in that respect, but I had for a long time as a student, as an early employee at another SaaS company I was with, had really loved the philosophy and the tool set that HubSpot had put out into the world. The philosophy being inbound, this idea that drawing people in with helpful and for lack of better words, really human content, was a great way to engage with them. And it was a great way to support them on whatever their buying journey was. And so I credit them for that concept being such of a piece of my professional early and was really, really lucky to spend some of my formative marketing years with the company there.
I first joined in an interesting role doing verticalized marketing. So HubSpot at the time had a very traditional sales process, traditional marketing process where they spoke to one audience altogether, Hey, you are someone who's trying to attract leads, what does that look like? And it turns out that story didn't resonate as closely with certain types of businesses, even though the use case was actually really similar. So if you were a school, you're not trying to attract leads, you're trying to attract students. If you are a nonprofit, you're not trying to close deals, you're trying to get donations. So my first role at HubSpot was trying to take that HubSpot marketing motion story and actually translate it for these verticals out in the world or these different segments of buyers that might not have understood the narrative as I was traditionally being told, even though the product itself actually still could really help them solve challenges that they were trying to in this world.
So I did that for a little bit and loved that role, but after four or five years was itching for a change, was itching for something slightly different. So eventually transitioned into managing the HubSpot user groups programme. I'm not an event marketer, I'm not a community marketer, but it was a chance to take the power of HubSpot users and use it for something good. And really what was blocking us from doing that wasn't the passion that people had for the product or even the desire to learn and to share with each other really was more of an operational challenge. So I joined that programme and had a chance to really rebuild it from the ground up, focusing more on scale and on operations. How do we have stronger communication between us and our local user group leaders? How do we enable them with better education and presentations that they can go share?
How do we actually track the impact of a customer's lifecycle with HubSpot if they are someone who regularly attends user groups or not? And that was a really, really awesome experience in programme management and meeting people from all over the world and seeing all the different ways that HubSpot powers these businesses, which was great. And then ultimately there was this year, 2020 and this thing called a pandemic that happened and an in-person events programme was actually not the best programme to be working on. So we of course did everything in our power to turn that into a virtual events programme. And then there was this time I had on my hands to try to go solve another challenge. And at the time, that challenge was helping HubSpot prospects, buyers, fans figure out how to run a business during a pandemic. And so HubSpot did the thing that I love about them, which was just to say, how do we help people?
How do we help people understand this? How do we help people navigate this? And that led to this programme called Adapt 2020, which was a series of webinars and pieces of content, and I had the privilege of leading this ongoing educational series, all of the different topics of which for each of these things each week focus on just something to help people navigate the world as it was changing today. Hey, you've never set up an online store before and now you have to do that because that's the only way to do business. How do you do that? Hey, you've never run events online before. How do you do that? That work transitioned long story short into a full-time campaign role. There was something powerful behind this idea of, well, what if we all rally behind these topics and we all support them together and we all try to have these more, I guess, unified pushes into the market with these stories That transitioned into a full-time campaigns role, working alongside product marketing and trying to just figure out how do we take the go-to-market stories that HubSpot cares about and actually turned those into big collaborative demand generation pushes.
So that was roughly where my time at HubSpot concluded it was within doing that kind of work. And as it turns out, when you're doing that work, you get to a take the experience you've had working across digital for X number of years at that point and connecting all those dots to figure out how to go run this thing together. And it translated really nicely into a role with Recorded Future, a threat intelligence SaaS platform in leading their demand gen team. And what they were struggling with was kind of the same thing. How do we figure out the right messages for our market? How do we put the go-to market team? How do we get the go-to market motion in sync and activate against those things? And so that transitioned really nicely into that role where I did that for three years and we got to grow and shape what the definition of demand gen was. Was it email marketing? Was it search optimization? Was it webinar programming? That all really grew and evolved over the time I was there.

That's all amazing. Yeah, I can empathise with the struggles of in 2020 of putting an event on I was somebody in 2020 who made their living getting on aeroplanes and flying around the world and making films. That was very interesting indeed. It was like I look back kind of in horror with it at time, to be honest with you, seriously pivot. But actually my pivot was remote production and I just started, I dived into the world of Zoom, I guess, and trying to help people do that better. It was my thing. And to this day, I still use some of the assets that I created at that time. I have a video that I send to people to help them, their lighting and their audio and everything and that those were the foundations of what I do now.

Of course, look us out. We,

Yeah,

We hang out

Every and indeed absolutely

Hang out every week remotely. And you've done some great work, may I say, helping us figure out how to do that too, which it's been been excellent

Mean's just a whole mean, the acceptance of creating video remotely is it's totally okay even in an enterprise B2B world to create content like that if it's done well enough

Of course.

And that is, I always look back and think that's one of the main legacies of that time for what I do. Definitely. And that all, even the HubSpot time, it feels like Joanna, you're involved in both of those companies at times where things were changing. And even just saying the concept of demand gen was surely in its infancy in part of that time. And I totally agree that HubSpot feel like to me they were, it's where I first heard of the concept of inbound. Their main event obviously famously is called inbound, got thing. But it was the thing that they kind of put out into the world, didn't they? In a big way in terms of their point of view on the world of business marketing was really fresh at the time.

I love that point. The concept of demand gen is changing. Yes. Because how people engage with the world is changing. So if that definition isn't constantly evolving, it means you're not adapting to the way that people are actually going out and looking for information and researching things. And so one of the worst things you can do is kind of stand still, right? So yeah, I love looking at it that way. Demand gen should be a constantly evolving discipline.

So just thinking about, I wanted to talk, I guess about Cloud Smith, they're B2B SaaS, but they're in the world of software supply chain management, which before I got involved didn't really know what that was at all. I suspect if we stopped people in the street, they wouldn't have a clue what that even meant. It is pretty deep techy stuff. You're marketing to engineering teams, I guess primarily the people you're talking to. How do you go about humanising the marketing of that? Obviously there's a lot of technical information and features and whatnot that you can talk about, but tell me a little bit about how you're now approaching humanising such a technical product. Really.

Oh man, that's a good question. Well, maybe I'll start actually maybe a few weeks before I started. Before I started at Cloud Smith. I too was a little bit afraid, we'll downplay it a little bit afraid of going into an industry that I knew so little about. HubSpot was easy. I was a HubSpot customer and I lived it. I do not go build CICV pipelines. I would not know how to. So one of the things that I think was helpful for myself and that our team really encourages each other to do and has tried to build more of a culture around is putting ourselves a little bit more in the shoes of the audience that we are marketing to first and foremost, leading up to starting at Cloud Smith, I took a 1 0 1 coding course, and by that I mean the first two sessions of it because boy, you don't learn coding in two weeks, but just putting hands on keyboard and saying, oh, so when you build code, what you are trying to do is just solve a series of little problems and they add up over and over time and you borrow from the other.
And even just understanding what that day looks like or feels like in the most minuscule way I think was interesting and was helpful and is something that I would encourage anyone in marketing to do. If you don't understand what the life of the person you are selling to looks like to some degree, then you're going to have a really time going and connecting with 'em. So I think that is piece one is just trying to understand at a really core level, I guess the job to be done for the people that you are talking to. And then of course there's things like learning the product, understanding the competitive landscape that you should be studying up upon before you join somewhere, but also continuing to educate yourself on if you aren't reading two or three things that you don't completely understand but should help you get a better understanding after you've read 'em at least of the world you're marketing into every week, again, you're probably not pushing yourself hard enough to connect with the audience that you're trying to sell to.
So I think there is some, especially especially with technical marketing, there is some level of rigour and research and discomfort that you have to put yourself through to try to put yourself into that world a little bit that I would encourage people to think about. I should say this is not true of everyone on our marketing team. We have people on our marketing team who could code most developers under a table and really understand that world. So that's one thing is just take the time to do that work from there. I think it also then, no matter how technical of a product you are trying to go, market still comes back to problem solving. When we go think through content, think through campaigns, think through programming, one of the biggest pushes I have for the team is let's start with the problem, start with the problem, start with the solution.
Or if you have a feature that is releasing or that you want to talk about, that's great. Know what that is and then back into the problem and the solution. Because at the end of the day, if you're just talking tactics, you're probably maybe educating someone, but you're not connecting back to the value that you offer. So I think no matter how technical the sale is or the job to be done is from a marketing perspective, there's some fundamental problem solution messaging work that probably needs to go into the foundations of any campaign, any content that you're building, what makes people tear their hair out at night. And it's the same thing for developers. It might be something extremely technical that they do to solve it that you don't understand, but the root problem that they're facing isn't that complicated. Usually I don't have enough people on my team to go do this thing, and that's a pain point for me because I can do more if I have a more automated system behind that that could be true of so many things in this world or it's I don't have enough visibility into this thing and my manager is asking me a bunch of questions every day and I can't give 'em a good enough answer.
Or it's something like I professionally want to improve my career and to do so I feel like I need to be able to have a better explanation for how it made the team more efficient. So despite how technical the next four and five steps are down of that messaging ladder of that product and feature matrix, oftentimes at the core of it, it does come back to understanding what is the human behind the keyboard that you are talking to, trying to work on. So I think there's a piece of that for us, and it is, I would say, demonstrably trickier when you work in a really technical space to make sure you are connecting the dots between those two things. Then it might be in other spaces. We're not a perfume company. We can't just go put an ad out on the TV where someone says, oh, excitement, they're selling excitement. Great. But I think the concept remains the same.

Amazing. No, that's great. I mean, thinking the importance I guess of knowing those pain points and the struggles that your customers are having, how would as a marketing team do you go about finding those in the company and what ways would you go about that?

Yeah, I am extraordinarily fortunate at Cloud Smith. I was fortunate at record future. I was fortunate at HubSpot to work with really smart people who oftentimes are closer to those problems themselves, or maybe I should say at HubSpot a little bit less. So we were the ones who were close to the problems ourselves at HubSpot, we were saying, oh my gosh, we have too many lists. This database is getting huge. And so HubSpot product team would say, oh, we're going to learn from you. We're going to go create a feature that auto deletes

List. Of course,

Whatever it was.
At Cloud Smith though, it's definitely flipped on its head a little bit. It is figuring out how do you tap into your development teams? How do you sit down and talk to the product team? How do you really get close with your sales organisation? Oh my God, please get close to your sales organisation. They're the ones who are on the front line, your SDR team, they're the ones who are trying to quit, literally get a person to say yes to even exploring a conversation with you. They know all of the objections, all of the things that people ears perk up about versus they don't. And it's plugging into those different prongs of the company. And I think making it easy to have them engage with you, it is having regular connections with the folks, the leadership team and those organisations. It is using resourcing. We pride ourselves on transparency as a company.
Anyone can get a licence to gong and go listen to the sales calls that we have here. Great, go do it. Anyone can go read customer tickets and see what someone chatted into support about, so awesome, go do it. So it's relying on both I think the humans to partner with and to explain those things and to really be your, for lack of better word, human connector into that. And then it's also relying on technology so that you're not putting all of the burden on those people. That's how you show up and be a good partner too. Say, I'm not going to put this all on you. I'm going to actually go do some research myself and I'm going to come back to you for the analysis of that stuff.

Brilliant. Yes, I mean those are all the sort of things I guess I was thinking of said gong, that's good. And that mean, that's what I hear is those are really great sources. And actually knowing how the level of transparency internally in Cloud Smith is really interesting. There's
So many really open conversations on Slack and I am one step removed, but I get to see some of them and it's wonderful. It's wonderful and it's challenging as well in different ways, but you certainly get to see what's happening and hear the customer's voice and the customer's problems in that. When in my time at Cloud Smith, there'd been a few people actually during that time looking after marketing Juliana, and there was a moment where like, oh, somebody said, we've got a new VP of marketing coming. And that was a bit of a moment for me. I was like, it could go either way. And I was so pleased when you arrived, one of the first things you did was arrange for the folks at Wistia to do an hour long talk with the entire team about video. And I mentioned to you, I had Sam Balter on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, had the most amazing chat with Sam. He was fabulous. And I've been a user of Wistia for over 11 years. Just before you arrived I was championing, getting licenced for it and I got it. It was there when you arrived. But tell me a little bit about your thoughts behind doing that, behind getting those folks in to just have a chat about all things video with your marketing team. What was the motivation that, and what
Do you feel about all that?

I'll try to sum it up into a few points, but first off, always learn from you. Always try to find ways to learn from others. There are so many people in this world who know about different aspects of the things that we work on than I ever will, and that is great, embrace that. So find people who are smart and engage with them and build that network and make it easy for your team to build that network. And we are all better off for it. Second, we are a really technical B2B SaaS company selling to developers. And sometimes I think we think that means that we need to be boring, for lack of better words. If you are a company like Wistia, you are trying as hard as possible to not be boring. You have the craziest campaigns coming up, you have the most fun product. So to some degree, I think it's also this push to say, even if the product you're selling is technical, you are still selling to people at the end of the day. And people like humour, people like stories, people like things that they can connect to on an emotional level. So to some degree, I also wanted to encourage the team to just learn from companies that already have that in the DNA of their marketing.
And the last but not least is the video piece. Of course. Why invest more in video? It is such important format for us to think about this year both as a dedicated starting in the stopping point for things that we build. And what I mean by that is we recently worked with you actually on a brand new start to finish demo of our product because I want people to be able to see, to explore, to understand, to experience what we're selling. And sometimes words just don't do that well enough. And so that's worth investing in something really dedicated and special to produce. And the other piece about video that I love is it is such a versatile way to get more out of things that maybe even more intentionally meant to be video to begin with. So my hope for the team is that we think about things that from the blueprint stage are meant to go be built and from the ground up, are these dedicated video projects that we should be taking on this year?
How should we engage people with video? What are the concepts that are hard to explain? What are the concepts that are fun? Could be more interesting if we did them in video versus through writing, but then also how do we go repurpose more things? This year the company had somewhat of a webinar motion running already. We're working on finding really exciting partners and improving the production quality of those webinars. But also once that webinar ran, I think the company, the team to some degree was like, all right, that's done. What's the next one we're running? And it's like, oh, you have 45 minutes of amazing content. I hate to break it to you. Most people don't want to go back and watch 45 minutes, but you know what they do want to watch a few really interesting takeaways that we should be doing more with.
So the other piece of it too of that conversation was how do you then repurpose, reuse? How do you invest in taking something and getting more out of it through video? And that could be you already have basically a script for something because it was a really great blog post, great record a few of those quotes or Oh, you've got a webinar you recorded. Great. How do you chop that up and get more of that onto LinkedIn? So that was a piece of it too. It was net new video creation, how do we invest more there? And then also repurposing how do we go use video to squeeze more juice out of the things that we're doing already?

Amazing. And yeah, completely agree with all of that. And it's so interesting for me knowing I guess the history of that and then the encouragement of that. I think it's fair to say that the webinar wasn't the most exciting thing historically in Glad Smith and it got pretty technical and it was not a Wistia webinar, which can be unbelievable productions full of all sorts of creatures and stories and amazing side stories. But that has been one of the great things I've seen is even just putting more energy into the webinar and there's a whole potential there I think as well of really doing that even better. And people miss that. I think it's so often just becomes a very dry piece and can be done really differently in a way that you do with other things. It just never seems to make it that joy never seems to make it to the webinar.

No. And the beautiful thing is now that we've had that meeting, it's almost given the team permission or excitement to go think like that more moving forward. So you can see in the slack threads in the team meetings that we have, how much more excited and invested people are and just throwing out ideas that they might not have thrown out before that tie back to like, oh, well should this be done in video? Should we repurpose this thing? And I'd be remiss I didn't also take a second to just say how grateful I am to have such an amazing team at Cloud Smith who are passionate, who are excited, who want to give people great experiences on the other end of the keyboard, but to some degree it's also helping us build that muscle of how do we think about doing that

A hundred percent. And yeah, I'm in a unique position to know those folks as well. I totally agree, and again, it's been really interesting for me in some ways helping them do that more. Totally. And still we're still in that process and that's been fabulous. There's so much potential as well to do more. It's great shifting gear slightly, Juliana, we come to have a conversation about all this without mentioning ai. I know. Yeah, it's kind of fundamental I guess to what I'm doing. The whole point of human video is this thesis that on a world full of AI content, that the authentic human stuff may hopefully rise to the or certainly differentiate itself. That's the hope anyway. I always say that on this podcast and I go, will somebody play that back to me in a year's time when the machines have taken over going like, yeah, good luck, Chris. But it was really interesting because even just the short time I've been recording the podcast literally the past few weeks, I feel like there's been almost a change or an acceleration in,

Oh my gosh, it's

Crazy. It is existential for me particularly maybe, but at the same time, the more things that are appearing, like I see and hear more and more people saying that AI avatar just isn't cutting it for me. I don't care how beautiful and perfect it is, it has no soul and it's never going to make me cry. It's never going to make me want love it. It's never going to make me want to do something. And I certainly am never going to trust it crucially. So I mean you have potential in your role to dive into this stuff more than most. You're talking about scaling and doing things, creating more content. Maybe there's an option there to dive into that too far potentially. How do you feel about all that? What are you seeing? How do you balance that? What to you is a great use of ai? What is AI slot?

Yeah, what a good question. First and foremost, AI is here. There isn't a world where we backtrack and we say, I refuse to use this thing, therefore it becomes irrelevant. I don't think that's possible at this point. And that's okay. A few thoughts on that. One is there's this interesting side of marketing now where we actually have to care about showing up in ai. So before we've written for human, we've created video for human, there is this interesting side of things now where we have to think about how do we create things for ai. I won't dive as much into that, but I do think that is something that if you are not thinking about it from a marketing perspective, you're probably missing something interesting.
The other side of it though, which I think is the one that is probably more pertinent for us to discuss right now, is what role does AI play in your team and the output of your team and the construction of your team or a little bit spoiled in that we had a really technical product and because of that, it actually is a little bit easier for us to get away with anything AI focused. And by that I mean we've tried AI chat responses on our website. AI did not understand the nuanced questions around package formats and upstreams, and it did at a basic level, but when someone asks a follow up question and dives a little bit deeper, there really isn't replacing a human expert that we have found as much for that yet. That might change when it comes to content creation though, I do think AI is a fantastic tool to help with productivity and getting you started. I myself absolutely use chat GPT when it comes to brainstorming ideas sometimes, or man, I wrote this thing and I just want to shrink it down to two paragraphs. Can someone help me with that? That said, you can still tell when something's written by ai, there's this, it is hard to explain, but if someone put a piece of someone put a blog post in front of you, it was written by ai, and when that was written by a real human, you would know the difference. It's that it is there still.

Yeah, it's the six fingers of writing, isn't it? Yeah,

Right. It's a great way of putting it, Chris.

That's the way I think about it. I'm a visual person, feels human. When the images came along, I was like, oh, that's the way in which it's terrible. And I couldn't necessarily pick it up with the nuances of language and the writing, but I'm like, oh, I see what the copywriters are talking about now.

100%. So use ai, let it help you, let it get started and then have a human on the other end of that who is still polishing that thing before it goes out into the world. Have a human that is adding their voice to it. Add a human who is sharing a personal experience that AI can't pull from what AI doesn't have real life experience. So AI can't say, man, I was on this customer call once and this is the problem that came up that really illustrates the point I'm trying to make in this blog post. So think about that, inject that stuff in. It's really important still.
And so use AI to get started use it to repurpose it, is that much quicker and easier for us to take those webinars and to turn them into a bunch of shorts for YouTube now than it used to be. That's great. Someone still needed to go through that webinar or have the idea to do that to begin with, or someone had to still look at that thing and say, is that on brand enough for us? Or should we make sure the image is a little bit sharper? So have a human who's looking at that thing and who still has a traditional brand guidance to who is looking at that thing as if they're the receiver on the other side of it and really questioning the quality and the output of it and then take those resources that you were going to put into that and put them somewhere else too. That's the thing.
There's certainly, I won't go too deep into it. There is risk of AI taking work away from people, taking bandwidth away from people, but I also think there's more additional interesting things we could be doing. So take the thing that you were going to go do and do it five times in a more personalised way now because you have the extra bandwidth to go take it and make four versions of it or take that thing you're going to do and now go focus on the distribution plan for it a little bit more. So use it where you can have a human please, please have a human screen it pretty, pretty, please inject your own personality, inject your own stories, and then hopefully you use that extra time to go find new projects that you can explore.

I love all of that. And yeah, fully agree with what you're saying. It's something I have to think about a lot. And even the thing that I'd heard earlier that I said would come back to was you mentioned about keeping up with the changes, and I think you maybe said search and I had another client posted just today, they said, had a great inquiry, probably will become a fab customer. And in the chat they always say, is there anyone I can thank for a referral? Most of their business comes from referrals. You hear about us. And for the first time that person said Chat, GPT, and this was one of the directors of the company was saying this, and he is like, that's a whole moment for us. We now need to think about this. And then everyone needs to think about that. I see that discussion a lot and I know that it is kind of coming from traditional SEO work and even where you appear in Reddit and those seem to be what's feeding that. And it seems to be a little bit of a mystery currently, why to crack that puzzle. But that's an interesting time.

For the first time I would argue there are your core set of KPIs that you care about as a marketing team. And then there are also kind of secondary KPIs that you have for the first time. One of our secondary KPIs is search traffic from LLMs. Not if anything not because I think we have this grand control over it just yet, but if I want us to be monitoring it, I want us to be caught conscious of it. I want us to go back and see if certain things are working really well to get showing up in those channels. So yeah, it's definitely an interesting one.

Fab just to bring in the land a bit. The last thing I'd love to just focus on for five minutes even is thought leadership content. You recently, we had our offsite. I love the way I say we had our, I work for clouds. I don't, but I have more merch than most employees I much have at the brand. But yeah, at the recent offsite, people come from all over the world and they're together and you'd said, let's take that opportunity to grab some of the senior folks and get some kind of thought leadership content going from them. What's your thinking behind that? How do you hope in the future maybe to promote that throughout the company a bit more and just a little bit on personal LinkedIn content, commercial page, LinkedIn content, just that balance of where you mentioned distribution moment. Tell me a little bit about your thoughts around all that.

Yeah, it's a great question. Maybe I'll start with the content itself and then talk distribution secondarily, although aren't those two things woven together in terms of content itself? I think one of the biggest encouragement I had for the team upon landing on the shores of Cloud Smith was like, stop talking about Cloud Smith and we have an amazing product and we have people who are so proud of what they've built and who truly understandably so think that we are revolutionising and making people's revolutionising the way DevOps works and making people's lives better. And it's totally, totally relatable to want to go shout that to the world and to feel frustrated when not enough people know that it's so understandable. If anything, it is a great problem to have to be like, oh my gosh, we're so proud of the things we do. We want to burn to no bathroom.
That's awesome. And at the same time, that's not the first handshake you make with someone, right? When you go meet someone for the first time, it's not immediately, well, this isn't me, this is who I it should be. And especially not in B2B world, let's go back to the top, the top of the hour when we talked about inbound, I still believe some of those concepts are true. People search for solutions to problems. People look for smart people to learn from, people care about people, not necessarily brands. And so all of this I think roughly translated into us saying, well, how do we get a little bit more content out there that's not necessarily about us, but that's just helping people think about the things that are causing them trouble on a day-to-day basis and ways to make their lives better.
That can be done at this really grand macro level. Here's how DevOps has changed. These are these big themes and shifts in the industry you should care about. And so we have leaders in our company who are really well positioned to talk about that stuff and I wanted to help give them a platform to do that. And so you'll see us putting out more content now that is just reflecting on changes in the industry and how does that mean you should be shaping your team in the future? How does that mean you should be thinking about your budget next year? How does that mean you should be re-imagining your tech tool stack? Those are the types of things that I want us to have a point of view on. I want us to earn people as trust around before we go inserting ourselves into that conversation. And we do that on the more technical side of things too. I was just talking with that. We brought on someone for developer relations. You want to talk about how to humanise things and how to speak more to people you invest in humans who sit squarely in community and who are a human, API between your community. But we were discussing content for

Export

Human ai. I love that. Yeah, we have a human a BI now, it was great, but we were discussing content and it was like, well, let's not talk specifically about this feature. Let's talk about this. I won't get too technic it, but where we landed was like, let's go

Talk. We'll lose them. Juliana, if we start

Mentioning, yeah, we won't go into that one. But the point of it was like, let's go talk about this thing that's kind of tangential to what we do, but that is helping to solve a really big problem that if you are a technical end user you have right now around security, more people will be interested in that thing. It'll be immediately helpful for them. And by the way, if you're interested in that thing, you're also probably a good fit to learn more about how our product helps you with a thing that's two steps away from that. And so from the, we're trying to talk to CTOs and help them shape what their team looks like and earn their trust all the way down to the really technical DevOps engineer who's trying to just do their day job better. There are ways to increase thought leadership that aren't just about you, and that's not to say you shouldn't be in the picture. We want to do a better job of showing off what we do and how we help you solve your challenges and help you solve your problems. But can we have a little bit more of an intentional progression between the thought leadership work we do and then eventually that once we've kind of earned the right to go have that conversation with you.

Amazing. Yeah, I love all of that. And thought leadership content is kind of a big part of what I do, and I think it's such a wonderful play on personal LinkedIn these days and then what you can do with that in terms of promoting that with thought leadership ads and

That

Whole human connection rather than the corporate sounds great for just humanising the brand as well. It's a wonderful play these days. Juliana, this has been amazing. How can people find out, I guess more about you and can I keep up with what you're doing and what you're putting out into the world at all and more about Cloud Smith as well?

Fair enough. Well, I'm always on LinkedIn, rarely posting things that aren't about Cloud Smith, but I'm there. Happy to connect, happy to learn more. Like I said, building that network of people is so important. Even if they're not in your industry, even if they're not in your role, we are here to help each other and we should be doing so that's always happy to do that. And then, yeah, cloud Smith, I'd like to say that you, you'll be hearing about us just because we've got a really big future ahead of us. So whether you like it or not, you'll be hearing about us, but I encourage people to come check out our website, look at the blog content the team is creating, go to YouTube, check out some of the videos we're going to start rolling out with hopefully more and more really great stuff to come.

I love it. I hope to be part of that.

We look forward to you being a part of that. Chris. Yeah.

Juliana, thank you so much for your time. This has been awesome. Really appreciate it.

Oh, thanks for having me, Chris. I really love the work that you do, and I love just the message that you're trying to reinforce for this podcast. So it's an absolute joy to be a part of it.